What's wrong with Series VII and VIII?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Cepillo, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I've seen a couple of people make this incorrect assumption now and it surprises me each time. When I watched Cassandra I never for a second thought that Lister was somehow breaking the fourth wall and referring to an actual episode title. It was obvious to me that he was referring to the phenomenon of Future Echoes encountered in the episode of the same title, an episode that contains such dialogue as:

    HOLLY: Oh, that. You're seeing future echoes. Didn't I explain this to
    you?
    RIMMER: What are future echoes?


    You'll note that Holly's response is not to say "It's the name of this episode, Arnold!" That's becuase the Future Echoes being referred to are a named phenomena within the episode. The characters are not talking about the episode itself

    Similarly in Cassandra when we have this dialogue:

    LISTER: Future echoes, remember?
    CAT: Future echoes, oh right!
    KOCHANSKI: What was that?


    You'll again note that the response from Lister is not to say "It was episode 2 of Series 1 of this show!". Instead he offers this:

    LISTER: Well, we learnt that if the future's already decided...you can't change it...

    That's because Lister is referring to his memories of the future echoes phenomena they witnessed and what they learned from it not an episode title!

    It's contextually the same sort of reference as this segment from Series 4's D.N.A

    LISTER: Remember last Easter, twelve months ago to the day, the
    Polymorph?
    KRYTEN: That's right. You were attacked by a killer shami kebab!


    Again Lister is referring to the creature called the Polymorph, the fact that 'Polymorph' also happens to be the episode title doesn't change the context of his reference from one that makes sense to some sort of wink wink, fourth wall breaker.

    I can understand why alot of the things that went on in series eight might have made you lose faith with the writers of the show but I assure you that there is nothing "shambolic" about Lister's reference. It's a perfectly valid one for him to make.

    In defence of Wascallywabbit, there is a big difference between someone saying "I have never liked X television programme so will simply not watch it and ignore it" and saying "I have across twenty years of my life followed the story of a particular television show, I have read the novels, watched the series and attended the conventions. I have become deeply attached to the characters and now hold a real interest in what happens to them. The show has recently taken a direction that I strongly believe insults and tarnishes these memories and as such I would rather no more episodes were made."

    Yes, the latter view might indeed be selfish to those who DO still enjoy the show and would like it to go on existing but we must also understand that for someone as deeply attached to it as Wascallywabbit might possibly be, then it is close to impossible for him/her to just "switch off" as you suggest. The addicted fan will almost always keep watching, but it may be painful for them to do so if they are watching something they see as a decline and that's why they'd rather the pain was ended.

    It's not always as easy as simply saying "I won't watch". That's why the phenomena of "It used to be good but I hope they don't make any more" is so common. It's a feeling most of us have probably had at some point about something I expect.

    I myself do want more Red Dwarf but I can understand why others don't.
     
  2. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

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    But the whole of Stoke me a Clipper was about building up the confidence of an insecure man and tricking him into thinking that he had what it took to wear the mantle of Ace Rimmer.

    It's all a tricky business because, as I say, I would love to see Rimmer overcome his demons a la Terrorform and do something heroic and one of my biggest disappointments of series VIII was the backward step in Rimmers character where he seemed to have lost so much of the personality he'd developed in V, VI and VII. However, much of the shows funniest moments historically come from Rimmer being this horrible anal little man with a personality by-pass. :?
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Sure but succesfully foreshadowing this potential with those momentary pockets of bravery in Out of Time (Let's not forget his stirring "Then I say fight" line) wouldn't have seemed at all out of place in my view, especially since at the time Rimmer was being written out of the show.

    Without Out of Time's proof of heroism I would have found 'Stoke' to be far less believable...although as you say, we've already seen that with a bit of self-belief Rimmer has the potential to be braver than he is (Terrorform). OOT gave us a closer referenc point however.

    Whether he was tricked into accepting it or not with that awful "Knights" subplot doesn't really change the fact that Rimmmer had to have it in him to begin with. For that reason I don't see why the end of series 6 would have presented a problem leading into series 7 if the writers had chosen to handle it that way.
     
  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    i admit about the idea that if the series carrys on delivering so and so quality shows that red dwarf will become forgotten for its great shows and remembered for the not so good ones :/
     
  5. tortexturtle

    tortexturtle First Technician

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    Maybe I've been spending too much time on facebook, but there really needs to be a "like" function on this board, because this post was pretty priceless -- if only for the tedious (yet apparently necessary) explanation of a piece of dialogue!
     
  6. Spaceman

    Spaceman Supply Officer

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    Great comedy performance Wascallywabbit, i enjoyed it very much XXX
     
  7. GulDukat

    GulDukat Third Technician

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    I am currently re-watching the entire RD series after not having seen it since 1999. Despite it having been so long, I remember series 1-6 like the back of my hand. I don't really remember 7 and 8 all too well, simply because they came out later and I only saw them once before taking a hiatus from the show.

    That said, I would have to disagree with some of the posters here. I feel that series 8 was an improvement over 7. I felt that series 7, while not bad, was sort of flat. Also, the absence of Chris Barrie really hurt the show. Also, I didn't care for Chloë Annett. Yes, she was in series 8, but the return of Rimmer offset that albatross.

    I may be in a minority, but I liked how the entire crew was brought back in series 8. One great thing about RD is that each season has its own flavor. The different cast changes, sets, etc, that change over time kept the show from getting stale. One thing that I loved about series one was that it was almost like watching a play. The cat wasn't very prominent, so you get to know Rimmer and Lister, mostly, or a lot of the time in the confines of their room. And then the dynamics changed for season 2 and 3 and so on. So in season 8, we get to go back--to what it would have been like before the accident and see what life was like.

    At the time, I remember really enjoying Red Dwarf 8.

    I am currently on season 6 and will watch 7 and 8 soon. Perhaps now that I am older my perspective will have changed. I look forward to viewing them again with new eyes.
     
  8. thecogre

    thecogre First Technician

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    i am in agreement with you
     
  9. Paul Taylor

    Paul Taylor Console Officer

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    I also agree with almost everything you said, except I thought Chloe was great in series 8. I didn't think she, or the character, was good in series 7, but then it's my least favourite series anyway for a range of reasons.
     
  10. JEZZMUND

    JEZZMUND First Technician

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    Wait 'til the new series...
    having attempted mining Dougs' brain - and succeeding in teasing a few of his ideas and plans for series X out of him,
    I'm absolutely confident that the new stuff that's planned will be the best yet - certainly the most interesting!
    As with ANY series of RD - I'm sure there'll be those that love it and those that hate it, but i for one am drooling in anticipation!
     
  11. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    as exciting as the ideas are it still seems doug wants to go backwards with the show, like revisiting old ideas for plot devices

    and even if these ideas dont come to pass it still shows his frame of mind towards the show

    over all i dont quite know why doug needs to revisit ideas to make new ideas, but who knows maybe they could work well :-)
     
  12. JEZZMUND

    JEZZMUND First Technician

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    Well, i suppose he could abandon all his new ideas - and ignore all the established plot mechanics he's generated and come up with a complete RD redux - but if he did that i'm sure everyone and their dog would be bitching " it's nothing like Red Dwarf "
    Personally i'd say - just be pleased there's more coming, reserve judgment until it's been aired and seen...
     
  13. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

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    I'm really excited about the prospects for the new series, I think it's worth remembering that Dougs hands were tied to some extent since Rob went. Now I think he may have something to prove and with the help of a nine or ten year back story gap to work with, the possibilities are endless.
     
  14. GulDukat

    GulDukat Third Technician

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    I'm watching series VII now, and it's actually better than I remember.

    A James Bond comparison.

    Stylistically, VII is a lot different than I-VI, it just has a different vibe/feel. VII is sort of like the joker of the pact, it's kind of like the On Her Majesty's Secret Service of the Red Dwarf franchise, in that they went for a different feel, there's a major cast change, it split fans, and the writers/producer's returned to form for the next installment.
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    i remember around the time of 1999 feeling the show was never gonna be like it used to be, as the whole 4 guys alone in space idea seemed to be lost, and it was straying to far from the early 1 to 6 series far to much

    and then the remastered series was being shown, which i hated as i felt like it was changing the early series into a series 8 clone

    so i honestly never thought we would be at this point where the where its just the 4 characters back in original costumes and red dwarf shrinks back down to its original size, and talk of model shots possibly coming back, ect ect
     
  16. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    If I recall correctly (which I daresay I don't and someone will cut me off on this), On Her Majesty's Secret Service actually had a different production team anyhow, and it was not so much a "return to form" later but rather a return of the old production crew in areas. Or at least that was what I heard, obviously was still a long way from being born at the time the film was made so can't really speak from experience.

    Although Diamonds are Forever isn't really much of a return to form, and seems to come under a lot of stick for a rather weak showing on the whole (still not as bad as Lazenby's Bond mark you). Which can, strangely enough, be said of the eighth season of Dwarf which also comes under a lot of stick. Each to their own I guess.

    On that Dwarf note, it seems that re-evaluation can also link OHMSS to Dwarf VII, as OHMSS tends to get viewed in a better light these days compared to when it was first released, and I've always found that looking back at Dwarf VII afterwards it stands out far stronger than on the initial viewing. That bit is just personal preference though.
     
  17. GulDukat

    GulDukat Third Technician

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    By "return to form," DAF seemed to have the look, feel, etc, of Goldfinger (not to mention Connery). RD VIII, like a lot different from the earlier seasons, still had more of the classic feel than series VII, IMHO, as Holly and Rimmer returned.
     
  18. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    What's IMHO? (Yes, I am unfamiliar with any of these internet/text message abbreviations, but as I've stated before in various parts of this forum, I am caveman in many respects, and I don't just mean the beard).

    Anyhow, more on topic I have to disagree with the overall feel of Series VIII being more in line with I-VI. Granted my opinion isn't exactly unbiased as Series VIII ranks last in my order of preference, but to me it felt more like an attempt to capture the older feel but failing in the respect that it doesn't have the lasting jokes the way the classics did. The interplay with Lister/Rimmer was different as a result of it being a different Rimmer (alive and with the rest of the crew he didn't find that Series I vibe either), and Holly had always felt redundant. Series VIII has it's own feel that varies from the rest to the same extent that Series VII did, and to me stands just as far from the overall feel of Series I-VI, only in a different direction.

    And Sean Connery really wasn't on form in Diamonds are Forever, harkening a bit more like a Lazenby than a Connery (I wonder if that was a Bond trend, as Moore was pretty weak too in his last couple, and Brosnan... well the films had just lost that charm by that point). Haven't watched OHMSS in a while though so can't really speak on overall production feel there.
     
  19. GulDukat

    GulDukat Third Technician

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    IMHO-In My Humble Opinion

    Just finished VII after having watched I-VI. Maybe the writing wasn't of the same caliber, and they misfired by changing the cinematography to make it look more polished, sleek, like a movie, but it wasn't bad. I actually still really enjoyed it. Some of the stories were interesting, and there were still some great laughs. Chloë Annett was better than I remember. I liked how she clashed with the other characters--kind of like Diane from Cheers.

    Given that Grant wasn't involved and Barrie was hardly in it, they did the best they could with what they had.

    Off topic, but with regards to James Bond, Connery and DAF in general, had the feeling of the Moore-era, whereas Lazenby played the character pretty straight. OHMSS is far more more serious in tone and actually stuck to Flemming's source material, whereas DAF was sort of a goof-ball spy-thriller--Wint and Kidd anyone?

    About to watch VIII and then BTR.

    These past few months have been fun, re-watching the show. Not a bad way to blow 100 bucks.
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Yep, OHMSS is considered one of the best-made Bond films now - best written, shot, edited and containing a depth the series never found again until Daniel Craig - while Diamonds is mostly thought of as flabby, parody Bond with Connery barely trying.

    But the production team for OHMSS didn't change. The director had edited on the last few Bonds, the producers were exactly the same, and the screenwriter had worked on all the previous films save for one. The film before OHMSS, You Only Live Twice, had the biggest changes - new writers and a director brought in from outside the franchise.
     

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