When did "classic" Dwarf end?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by mophead241, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. profligate

    profligate Skutter

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    For me, "classic" Dwarf is series 1 & 2. Like early childhood, everyone was finding their legs and developing their own personality. Series 3-6 are pre and early teen years, involving the pushing of boundaries and the development of new ideas and just generally coming into their own as a mature show. And then there's series 7 & 8 which I'm still somewhat torn about. I'm not entirely sure if all of their parents' loving and nurturing turned out for naught as the show turned into somewhat of a jerk in its late teen years. Or maybe the show just started taking classes that its parents and guardians didn't approve of, basically going off to art college instead of getting a "proper degree".
     
  2. mophead241

    mophead241 Catering Officer

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    I agree with Emohawk, I like Meltdown.
     
  3. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Series 1 - 6 are classic RD. 7 was awful & I only managed a couple episodes of 8 it was unimaginably horrible. Then I put myself through Back To Earth which was one of the laziest pieces of tv ever. An insult to its audience. RD X can't be any worse but without Rob Grant I can't see a return to classic Dwarf.
     
  4. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    You're absolutely entitled to your opinion as to whether or not you thought Back to Earth was any good.

    But "lazy"? Given the amount of work that was put into it? Given the number of people who worked ridiculous hours, for barely any money (or in some cases, for absolutely nothing), out of nothing other than love for the show and their craft? You want to call it lazy? Really? What, exactly, are you basing that on?

    If anyone should be insulted it's them, not you. Especially to come here onto the official forum and say it. Despite being the official forum, we don't censor negative opinion. But that comment's not fair. That's not fair at all.
     
  5. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    After the long wait fans are given a rehash of an idea from an old episode mixed with the overused plot device of fictional characters in the real world & tiresome references to Blade Runner. Despite the obvious effort made by cast & crew it is lazy. The stuff of fan fiction.
     
  6. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    No, they were given a pseudo-sequel to a previous episode with linking continuity (i.e. Polymorph and Emohawk or GMOTA and Rimmerworld)....AND, here's the really clever bit, the story was put together well enough so that the audience...even the hardcore fans, genuinely DIDN'T catch on until the reveal that this was what was happening. Look at the threads on here that were made at the time of the original screening if you don't believe me.

    To pull the wool over the eyes of your audience once, as Grant and Naylor did with Back to Reality was an achievment. For Naylor to do it AGAIN, while dropping massive clues everywhere (a squid, the similar episode titles, etc) and still keep his audience guessing about what was real and what wasn't shows a tremendous amount of work went into constructing the story and further refutes your "lazy" accusation.

    Except that AGAIN, you've missed the point. Back to Earth ISN'T a story about fictional characters in the real world and if you think it is then you havn't been paying attention. The very point of implying metafiction was to throw the viewer a curveball and make them think "oh, so they're doing this whole angle"...it was, in very real terms the distraction that stopped people seeing the true curveball that the show was going to throw at you. Think of it this way too: how annoyed were you with Naylor when you thought he was actually going to destroy RD continuity by establishing these beloved characters as mere fictions? How much did it make you realise how much you actually cared about the characters in question? How much of a sigh of relief did you breath when you realised that it wasn't going to end that way after all and the status quo was, in fact going to remain unharmed. That kind of drama isn't produced by lazy writing or the sort of slap-dash/one dimensional fan-fiction you refer to.

    Still...Naylor wasn't finished because there was that last final twist of drama where many of us seriously believed that Lister...the main character of the show was potentially going to be written out (quite possibly helped by the reinforcement in the viewers mind of Craig Charles other acting duties in the corrie scenes).

    Lazy writing? Fan fiction? Do me a lemon!
     
  7. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Did they pull the wool over anyone's eyes? It was obvious from the title & the squid that this was basically a rehash of Back to Reality & the characters discovering they are fictional was all going to be a hallucination. I didn't breathe a sigh of relief as it was obvious. I dig breathe a sigh of relief when it was all over of course. It had neither the wit nor the ingenuity of Back To Reality which genuinely felt like a real reboot of the show until the final twist. You can't use the same idea twice & not expect some fans to use the term lazy.
     
  8. codename_47

    codename_47 First Technician

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    When did Classic Dwarf end?

    When do YOU want it to?

    For me nothing will beat the huge crushing disappointment I felt after the HUGE gap between the end of series 6 and then sitting down to watch Tikka to Ride and thinking "after all this time.....was it worth it?"

    True, the episodes from then on got a bit better (even the very next week) and for me Series 8 felt like a marked improvement to "Red Dwarf done as wrong as possible" (filmic look, no audience, no Rimmer, no jokes it seemed) so my perspective on what Classic Dwarf is or isn't is skewed by my own feelings and will be different to yours.

    All this "fandom agrees xxxxx is the best RD era" is just people trying to fit in and impress fellow fans when in reality it is down to the individuals.
     
  9. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Well all I can say is, good for you. You're obviously smarter than 95% of the viewership and professional critics judging by the comments that were raging at the time of the original screenings, both on here and other forums and websites. I don't remember reading a single comment that correctly guessed the outcome of the special, even though, yes, in retrospect it does seem pretty obvious. It was well covered enough to fool the majority of fans which proves the only point I'm really interested in making to you: that the writing was neither "using the same idea twice" or "lazy".

    Laziness would have omitted the whole Kochanski sub-plot, it would have omitted Katarina, it wouldn't have bothered with special effects, Carbug (paid for with Doug Naylor's own money!) or the scenes involving extras and new sets.

    Your use of "Lazy" is what is insulting here. It implies that Doug Naylor took a commission from Dave, sat down at his computer and thought "nah, I got nothing" then booted up the script for Back to Reality and started making minor alterations here and there, the first being changing "Reality" to "Earth" as he cajoled himself with the thought of all that money he was going to make.

    It's an idiotic thought process.

    Call Back to Earth unfunny if you like, call it predictable, tired, repetitious even if you like (although I don't agree with many if any of those other than perhaps that it wasn't very funny - not that I cared about that as I enjoyed the story.) but please don't use the word "lazy" to describe something that all involved put their own time, effort and in many cases money into simply for the love of the show.
     
  10. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    i wouldnt say it was doug naylor being lazy but i do think there was some bad judgement on his part
     
  11. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    Yep, and again, you're entitled to think that. That's fine. I don't agree, but saying "I think some poor decisions were made" isn't an insult the way "lazy" is.

    Despite his (or her?) repeated cutting insults about my film elsewhere on this forum, bedfordfalls is on the money on this one.
     
  12. toby44

    toby44 Third Technician

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    Have to go with the end of the sixth season; bt in saying that ...how can you really trump episodes that took us to that point?...Better than life..Quarintene...Psirens...legion And Gunmen of the appocalypse. Although I will give a HUGE tick for Tikka to Ride. Furthermore the producers "cleaned" a heck of alot of the aired "mistakes and miscues" after season 6. Still...Gotta LOVE the Small rouge one in its entirity.:?
     
  13. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Surely it depends on the way you're using the word "classic"? If you mean "the best", then it's completely arbitrary. If you mean "old" or "original", then classic Dwarf ended with series VIII.

    But FWIW, I agree with the original poster. I think that as soon as series 6 started, there was something wrong. Jokes were stretched out, Kryten was irritating, Rimmer was too pompous... The wind was out of the programme's sails and it never completely returned. (Even though I agree that Gunmen of the Apocalypse is a great episode.)
     
  14. longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone

    longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone Second Technician

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    Agree.

    For me, "classic Dwarf" ended at the end of S5. After RD and Holly were gone, it was no longer "classic Dwarf."

    As much as I enjoy S7, I couldn't classify it "classic Dwarf." It's just too different.
     
  15. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I guess for me, Classic Dwarf is series 1 to 6. 6 was rather different from the other series in some ways, but thetone was largely the similar and it is probably my favourite (or at least one of my favourite) series.

    I also enjoyed a lot of the later series, and probably like Series VII as much as it's predecessors (shock, horror, I know!) but I wouldn't give it 'classic' status.

    I wouldn't define the word 'classic' as 'better' though, although I think in this case, Classic Dwarf is largely better than the rest. Series VII being an exception for me, although I think I'm in the minority there.

    Here's an interesting thought, if Series X turns out to be as good and shares the same spirit as the earlier series*, would that make it 'classic'? Not in the 'old' sense certainly, but it just shows how the word can be flexible. A number of times I've heard Robert Llewellyn say "this is classic Dwarf!" He said it for Back To Earth**, and for Series X, so he seems to be using the term as a comparative gauge of quality.

    *And should it share the same spirit as the earlier series? I'd say, largely yes, but I don't mind them doing some new things to keep things fresh and provide originality.

    **I'd disagree there regardless of interpretation of the word. It was very good in places, but that doesn't fulfil it as a classic)
     

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