Which Rimmer?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by markmagness, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

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    The thing with the concept of Ace Rimmer coming back and admitting that he's not cut out to be Ace goes against the character growth we saw in 'Stoke Me a Clipper'. By the end of that episode, Rimmer had fully accepted his destiny as Ace Rimmer and embraced taking on The Wig.
     
  2. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    (Well of course we need filling in on various aspects that are present in BTE i.e. back on dwarf, rimmer is dead again etc Things that will hopefully be explained, no matter how quick (e.g. a lister piece to camera, krytens log, rimmers diary, hollys beginning monologue, or a starwars-type scrawl at the beggining just quick enough so no one can read it lol))

    As far as which Rimmer Rimmer actually is (a curious paradoxical conundrum that could only exist on Red Dwarf, or maybe Lost lol); by now Rimmer has been actually replaced many times
    - Rimmer died series I, Rimmer was made a hologram, Rimmer was phased out of time (or rather time was altered) in series III, Rimmer was replaced by a different permutation from a parallel universe in series IV, Rimmer has also gone to a different dimension to replace Ace in series VII, Rimmer then returned to the crew and had been bought back to life in series VIII, as of BTE Rimmer has since also apparently died AGAIN and been bought back online as a hardlight hologram yet again utilising Legion's tech that the crew now have on board the Dwarf.
    On top of all that, the essence of Rimmer - i.e his light bee - has been put in fluid (coffee I think), crushed, digested (by Lister), and upgraded to be hardlight.

    Basically, I think the Rimmer in BTE is the same Rimmer we've had since series IV anyhow (well, the same Rimmer from series VIII at least, but certainly not the original Rimmer from series I!), it's just that he's died and he's been bought back by Holly again (holograms retain memories they had in life so it is the same Rimmer).

    PS it's also explained in one episode in one of the RD series (I can't think offhand which one) that holograms do age and even get physical ailments living people get, plus Rimmer aged in Out of Time!

    Phew :shock:
     
  3. Tabitha

    Tabitha Skutter

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    I have 2 theories.

    1. It's Rimmer from season 8 and he just died again, I mean for Rimmer that's not to odd (he dies at least 4 times in 8 seasons so...)

    2. It's Rimmer from season 6 and he when off to become Ace, saw how dangourase and/or scary the parelel universe was. Passed out and then ran away on his space ship, Spent 2 years on some nice M-class planet (acounting for why he wasn't there in 7 and 8) then got bored and came back saying how heroic and stuff he was, Lister then cheaked his memeries and found out what happend. lol. Probably not true but it's a theory :-)
     
  4. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

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    Betelgeuse, when was Rimmer replaced in Season IV?
     
  5. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    well I was saying that you wanted to technically count the number of times the original rimmer has been replaced there are various ambiguous plotpoints in various episodes which point to an event where a new version of Rimmer may have arived...
    as for your reference specifically to series 4...of the top of my head (since I posted that a while ago) I'd say I was referring to a scene I can picture in my head where rimmer and cat actually get phased out of existence, but then near the end of the episode they are phased back into existance however, rimmer is in the 'uniform colour' he will be wearing from then on, and cat is also wearing different clothes...if you were to read alot into this event (as we fans do :-) ) the you could say that the rimmer and cat that were phased out of existence were not the same ones that phased in..they could even be variants from a different dimension..(I can't remember which episode this was from).
     
  6. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    Was that not timeslides from S3, where lister becomes rich with the mansion etc, then Rimmer and cat dissapear as a consequence. When the timeline is corrected they both appear back on Red Dwarf.
     
  7. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    No thats another case where you could read into the episodes events and say that a new rimmer arrives (as I listed above in my long post) but what I'm thinking of (I've forgotten the episode like and idiot lol) was a scene which I'm sure was from series IV where the crew are walking down the corridor and rimmer and cat phase out of existence...maybe its Justice I've thinking of hmmm
     
  8. Stephen

    Stephen Console Officer

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    I'm loving all this talk of different versions of characters :-D If you took it all that way there wouldn't be any "original character" which is exactly the same person in any of the series. Just the person who's been phased out/ killed/ or whatever the least times :P
     
  9. Paul Taylor

    Paul Taylor Console Officer

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    You must be thinking of "Inquisitor" from series V.
     
  10. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    lol I may just be.

    lol well your right, of course it's primarily a comedy and Rimmer is really always the same constant character. But if you're a sci fi geek as many of us are and also an avid dwarf fans, well we sometimes can read too much into the show to try and cling onto credibility of 'in-universe' mythology...but rimmer really has been replaced by himself (oxymoron/paradox?) many times really with the most stark replacement - agreed by red dwarf fans alike - being in series VIII where the rimmer we knew up till series VII who went off to be the new incarnation of Ace is replaced by a new nanobot version more akin to the original rimmer from series I (phew). 8)
     
  11. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    lol I may just be.

    lol well your right, of course it's primarily a comedy and Rimmer is really always the same constant character. But if you're a sci fi geek as many of us are and also an avid dwarf fans, well we sometimes can read too much into the show to try and cling onto credibility of 'in-universe' mythology...but rimmer really has been replaced by himself (oxymoron/paradox?) many times really with the most stark replacement - agreed by red dwarf fans alike - being in series VIII where the rimmer we knew up till series VII who went off to be the new incarnation of Ace is replaced by a new nanobot version more akin to the original rimmer from series I (phew). 8)
     
  12. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    lol I may just be.

    lol well your right, of course it's primarily a comedy and Rimmer is really always the same constant character. But if you're a sci fi geek as many of us are and also an avid dwarf fans, well we sometimes can read too much into the show to try and cling onto credibility of 'in-universe' mythology...but rimmer really has been replaced by himself (oxymoron/paradox?) many times really with the most stark replacement - agreed by red dwarf fans alike - being in series VIII where the rimmer we knew up till series VII who went off to be the new incarnation of Ace is replaced by a new nanobot version more akin to the original rimmer from series I (phew). 8)
     
  13. MyMindIsGoing

    MyMindIsGoing First Technician

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    Okay... how's this?

    In order for people to be resurrected as a holgram, all of their personality, memories and experiences have to be uploaded into a database to be transferred into their hologrammatic body. But what if this process is a continuous one? By which I mean that, while they are alive, their brainwaves are being continuously uploaded into the database, so that at the time of death they can be made into a hologram with all of their experiences up to that point intact. This surely must be the case otherwise Rimmer would not be able to remember his death; what did he do, realise he was going to die and physically upload his mind to the hologram database in the few nanoseconds remaining to him?
    So, Rimmer's mind is downloaded into a light-bee and he comes back as a hologram. Now all of his experiences as a holgram are recorded in the same way as before, right up until the point of his leaving Red Dwarf as the new Ace. When Red Dwarf is rebuilt by the nanobots, along with Holly, the entire crew, and some nifty new machinery, would the hologram database also have been rebuilt? If so, when Rimmer is brought back to life, it would continue to record his mind onto the database where it had left off, so that when Rimmer died and was remade into a hologram for a second time, he would have the combined memories of both Rimmers!

    Phew. I need a lie down.
     
  14. Tabitha

    Tabitha Skutter

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    I love that theory it explains everything and allows Rimmer to have all the memories from seasons 1 to 8 it's perfect! Sure it could be kind of confusing for him but since when did anything ever go right for Rimmer anyway, I mean he died atleast 4 times - that's got to be a record even in sci-Fi lol :-) anyway I love your theory
     
  15. RozzaI

    RozzaI Third Technician

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    Acctually if you watch the original ending to only the good in the deleted scenes you will see that the crew did not return however when the vending machine said your the highest rank on the ship that makes you captain congratulations then why wasnt rimmer captain already:?::?::?:
     
  16. JamieUK

    JamieUK Skutter

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    Hi everyone, new member here, but long time Dwarf fan since the age of 12 I think. Roundabout series 2 repeat time anyway.

    My first post, and it's long and chuffing boring. Sorry and all that.



    It's got to be the original Rimmer for two reasons.

    1/ He is involved in conversations about the despair squid as if he was there, which the living Rimmer of series 8 wasn't. (In fact, Doug Naylor comments on this in his commentary of BTE, right at the end.)

    2/ He's a hard light hologram. The only one in existence (in this dimension). Legion was the only being in the universe who knew how hard light worked, or even that it existed. Not even Kryten's nanos wouldn't have known that.




    Well that was understandable at least. They all abandoned ship at the end of Only the Good.



    Let's be honest, continuity has been shot to pieces since series one. Lister having two appendixes, a soft light Rimmer manually operating a microphone in Marooned; a soft light Rimmer having a sense of smell in Kryten and Marooned... these things all happened before Rob Grant left.



    Well his hard light form can be affected by anything sensory. But of course he was affected by the same thing in Back to Reality when he was still soft light. It be da Dwarf continuity monster again!

    But that would only apply if this hologram Rimmer was a ressurected version of the living Rimmer of series 8, which it can't be, because he talks of sharing the adventures of series 1-7, which means he can only be the old Rimmer who's made a complete pig's arse of being Ace and has come back. Which would explain the hard light drive of course.

    But smeg, Dwarf invented wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey when David Tennant was still at school, so it'll probably be just like the zillion other continuity rents. Never explained... because we made... a mistake. OKAAAAY?!


    Uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhxxxxxxstrordinary!



    Or.... they just didn't have the time?


    I think the most telling evidence though, and given that "evidence" in the actual show frequently contradicts itself, is Doug Naylor's rather cryptic "If the cat's epxlanation is true, then it says a lot about who the man is with the H on his head" right at the end of BTE.

    I think that says pretty clearly that Naylor considers this Rimmer to have memories of series 1 to 7.


    I don't think anyone said they aged, just that they could die. In fact, in that very episode, Rimmer spends six hundred years in a dungeon without appearing to age a day.


    He was also previously a Rimmer who had been with Red Dwarf up to and until they encountered the time drive (he hid in Napoleonic France with it), which means he was also a Rimmer who had been with the team at the time they encountered Legion. So he could have gotten his hard light drive at the same time in history in his dimension as our Rimmer did.

    It's not, because that hard light Ace had a very similar history to our original Rimmer, including being with the crew before, during and after the time they met Legion. He says He used the time drive to hide in France and describes himself as once having been weasely, which is pretty unequivocal.


    Unless he was a total failure at being Ace, which is believable, considering he doesn't know his arse from his elbow and his thrust increaser from his ejection handle.



    Whether he'd embraced it and whether he would ever be any good at it are two entirely different things.



    It's explained that they can get ill and "die", but ageing isn't mentioned. And he did age in that one, but he didn't age AT ALL in Rimmerworld, which took place over a period of time thirty times as long (for Rimmer) as that in Out of Time.


    Ummm..... yeah, I think. Entirely possible. Probably the only way Naylor could figure it in after all this time anyway.

    What a smee....



    It's just a guess, but the vending machine just might have been being sarcastic.
     
  17. JamieUK

    JamieUK Skutter

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    To close...

    I think the continuity is whatever we have been told most recently. It's not a proper story in Sci-Fi like Star Trek or Star Wars, it's comedy and continuity and story are only there as and when they're needed to make us laugh. If Naylor wants to contradict everything he's ever said in the past (and he frequently has) then he'll do it quicker than you can say "second appendectomy".
     
  18. Anacron

    Anacron Skutter

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    How about a simple solution to all the things brought up by everyone:

    At the end of/after Season 8, Lister slides into an alternate reality where Rimmer never left the Red Dwarf/Starbug crew - Ace never needed the weasle Rimmer as a replacement.

    In this theory, Rimmer knows about the squid, Rimmer is a hardlight hologram & there are no problems with continuity.

    Short & Sweet solution.
     
  19. DespairSquid8

    DespairSquid8 Second Technician

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    Only Rimmer could become depressed just at the thought of being near a despair squid!?
     
  20. GARNER2015

    GARNER2015 Third Technician

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    Maybe they update thier hologram personalities on red dwarf?
     

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