Which Rimmer?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by markmagness, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. Salyavin

    Salyavin Skutter

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    Hello! First of all I'd like to shortly introduce myself. My name is Marc and I'm 19 years old. I'm from Germany, so my Englisch is not very well. Sorry about that.

    Maybe the resurrected Rimmer from series 8 died once more and then became a hologram again. Then he got the knowledge of the former Rimmer, the one who became Ace. I mean, it could be possible that a hologram's knowledge can be saved somehow.

    Of course that wouldn't explain how he can be a hard-light hologram but I think that's the tiniest problem. Maybe Kryten studied the technique after Legion gave it to them and then rebuilt it.

    What do you think? Does this make any sense?
     
  2. longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone

    longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone Second Technician

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    Makes sense to me! As far as we understand it, the lightbee is just a projection device, it doesn't actually contain the Rimmer "program." That database is stored in a computer on RD ("Holly"), and can conceivably be downloaded (perhaps in limited form?) to the computer on Blue Midget and Starbug as needed.

    It would stand to reason that when the original Rimmer left, Starbug would have retained a copy of the program that it'd been running throughout all of S6 and S7. It would also stand to reason that after they recovered Holly and RD, Holly probably re-integrated the Rimmer program with all of Rimmer's memories up to the point that he left to become Ace, back into RD's master hologram database before Starbug was destroyed.

    So assuming Rimmer does actually die either right after the closing scene of S8 or sometime after, Holly could certainly have resurrected him as a hologram again and he would have all the memories of the "original" Rimmer plus his "own" memories from the short span of time after he was resurrected by the nanobots to when he died the third time. (First time: RD disaster, second time: Timeslides, Third time: end of Only the Good...)
     
  3. Oddheads

    Oddheads Second Technician

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    It's a great theory, with just 1 minor drawback. Doug Naylor stated at quite a few fan conventions in recent years the Rimmer in Back To Earth and Series X is the same Rimmer from Series 1-7.

    Nice theory though, quite well-thought out!
     
  4. Salyavin

    Salyavin Skutter

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    I didn't know. Somehow I'm pleased to hear that, because I quite like to have the original Rimmer back. So Arnold wasn't a good Ace and returned to the red dwarf after the events of series eight? And the resurrected Rimmer was already dead at this time?
     
  5. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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  6. Oddheads

    Oddheads Second Technician

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  7. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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  8. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    One thing we do know is that he came back and saved the day when the chameleonic microbe was destroying the ship, as it is revealed at the end of Series X.

    How he did it we don't know, he claims skill Kryten claims fluke. We know that nano-Rimmer is gone, we just don't know how and where he went.
     
  9. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I love a good mystery.
     
  10. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    There's still nothing in the show that contradicts my theory that Series VIII Rimmer died and was resurrected as a hologram, but because his "recording" was added to the existing Rimmer hologram record, he combined the memories of his post-nanobot time with everything that happened between The End and Stoke Me A Clipper.

    Until it does, that seems to me to be the best/most plausible explanation. Certainly, it's clear without a doubt that this Rimmer remembers events from both Series V and Series VIII.
     
  11. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    That's what I said....... sort of.
     
  12. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Ahhhhhh but the only 'event' this Rimmer remembers from VIII is the chameleonic microbe, because he saved the ship from it.
     
  13. Callisto252

    Callisto252 Supply Officer

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    Good point, and does he even remember it at all?

    I think nano-Rimmer dies on the disintegrating ship but when the other Dwarfers cross into the mirror universe they somehow carry the microbe with them. The mirror universe ship then begins to corrode and so the original ship begins to return to normal. The crew return to their original universe and the now reinstated Red Dwarf, discover that Rimmer has died and then reboot his hologram (from the point where he left in series VII - I really don't like Rimmer in VIII!). They explain events to him and Rimmer immediately concludes that it was his 'own' bravery (well, that of his parallel self) in entering the mirror universe first and getting the antidote that saved the day. Kryten disagrees, saying he cannot take the credit for it, as what happened next was a fluke. Rimmer finds it very easy to persist in the misguided belief in his own heroism because he wasn't actually there himself.

    Not sure if this holds up to scrutiny, but it works for me (though I expect someone will now tell me why it doesn't!)
     
  14. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    Well, that's one interpretation. It's not necessarily the "only" event, just the only one that we've heard about. You can - if you want - draw the conclusion that he only remembers it because he turned up to save them. But there's also nothing that says he's not talking about it from the perspective of having been the Nanobot Rimmer, either. Like I say, factually, post-BTE Rimmer has mentioned events from V and VIII. That's all we have to go on.

    Speculation is fun! I actually like that the show hasn't confirmed either way.
     
  15. karnie

    karnie Supply Officer

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    In case anyone missed it, here's my fan-fic explanation of which Rimmer it is, and the events following Series VIII:

    Red Dwarf: Homecoming

    Or here if you want to download a PDF of the story: Homecoming PDF
     
  16. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Oh totally agree with that Mr P, its much more fun coming up with our own explanations than anything we could see in the show now.
     
  17. longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone

    longusernamebecausetheforumwantsone Second Technician

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    Me too. Maybe nobody reads our messages? :-)

     
  18. Oddheads

    Oddheads Second Technician

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    Given Doug Naylor has said it's the original Rimmer from 1-7, it's logically implied that therefore it isn't a hologram of the Series 8 Rimmer with implanted memories of 1-7 Rimmer.

    That's not to say it couldn't be the other way round though. It could still easily be that the original Rimmer from 1-7 had the memories of Series 8 Rimmer. So there's still that possibility.
     
  19. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    It took me a while to work out why this was a meaningful distinction.

    Say you're writing a novel with the chapters spread across different files, and want to combine them into a single file. It doesn't really matter if you add chapter eight to the other seven chapters, or do it the other way round. The end result is a file with all eight chapters.

    In this analogy, running the hologram is like reading the book aloud. It wouldn't make sense for someone to think, "What am I hearing? Is it the chapter eight file with others put before it - or chapters one to seven with eight stuck on the end?" It's the same story.

    I don't think anyone would have foreseen nano-clones of crew members. So I endorse the idea that there's probably a single file in the database called Rimmer, Arnold J which contains all Rimmer's adventures known to the ship. When Rimmer's around, that's just the AI's best guess of what he would be doing, based on all the information it has.

    Personally, I would say that a simulation of x living person based on y memories should be treated as a single person - no matter how many times you turn it on and off again, or how many copies of the simulation you run.

    However, on reflection, there is a meaningful distinction in this case. The events of Stoke... mean different Rimmers would be out of sync, and have different personalities based on different experience. If you ran a simulation of x living person with y memories, and did it again with z memories, then - provided y and z were different enough - you should arguably treat the simulations as two different people.

    "Provided x and y are different enough" is a key point here. Say there was a glitch and you ended up with two Rimmers (MeĀ²-style) for about twenty seconds. One lay on the bunk while the other stood in the doorway. Once the glitch ended and it was one Rimmer again, you wouldn't bother asking whether it was "bunk Rimmer or doorway Rimmer" you were left with, because it's not a meaningful distinction.

    Also, as Kryten points out, a hologram has a "small physical presence". So you might care whether RDX Rimmer is projected by the original light bee, or prefer to imagine that the original light bee is still out there - projecting a version of Ace somewhere.

    So for me, the pertinent questions are:

    - Does the ship's computer know what happened to the particular instance of the Rimmer simulation which left Starbug to become Ace? Does it draw on that information for the current simulation?

    - Is the light bee seen in BTE onwards the one that was used in series one to seven? i.e., did the light bee which left Starbug (in series seven) return at a later date, and remain on the ship?

    If the answer to both questions is "yes", I suppose you could say it's the "original Rimmer" rather than a hologram of nano-clone Rimmer.

    But there are plausible scenarios where you couldn't give a simple answer either way. The problem is, holograms aren't like ghosts or "souls", where there's a direct one-to-one correspondence between a single living human and a single hologram. You don't "turn into a hologram" when you die. It's murkier than that.

    For instance, you could imagine a scenario like the following (I'm not volunteering this as my own pet theory, by the way - it's just a possible scenario that would substantially muddy the philosophical water!:-(

    - Nano-clone Rimmer dies in the series eight cliffhanger, leaving his memories with the ship's computer

    - Series seven Rimmer returns, as Ace, to save the remaining crew

    - While he's on Red Dwarf, his light bee syncs with the ship and uploads his memories (to date) of being Ace

    - He then flies off to continue being Ace, but leaves the original light bee behind (because he got a newer one) in case they need it

    - The remaining crew turn it on, and get a simulation of Rimmer which remembers being Ace, and saving them from the microbe, but also remembers dying as nano-Rimmer

    In this case, would the new hologram count as the "original Rimmer"? It is projected by the original light bee, and remembers leaving Starbug and being Ace for a time. But there's also another instance of Rimmer which has all the same memories, and is still out there being Ace - having new adventures.
     
  20. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Simple as that eh?
     

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