Why do people like Trojan?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Slainmonkey, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Taste is naturally always going to be speculative, but I always found it the more series VIII-ish of all moderm Red Dwarf in both delivery and jokes....and the less said about the call centre plot the better. Only bits I thought were funny was the final payoff to the moose running gag, and the line "No, we just hosed him down and gave him a hat"....both are very funny moments, but 2 good jokes does not a good episode make! The rest of the episode was a complete trainwreck as far as I was concerned, yet people love this episode....so can someone explain to me what makes episode good, because I really just don't see it?
     
  2. mtullock

    mtullock First Technician

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    But you are an utter twwaaat
    Turning right now maam
    Im squeezong your head too hard
    Cat looking lost on the ship

    I admit there are a lot of iffy bits (o dont like the moose) but lots of amusing bits IMO
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I think its because it was the first episode of Dwarf since VI that felt like real Red Dwarf again regardless of it not being the best example of the Dave era. Just the show finally getting back to the main four Dwarfers having a space adventure felt so good to so many people. It's far from perfect but it ranks high with some people because its a key moment in the show's history.
    The performances and script may be a bit Blackadder but Trojan's humour is light years away from the robo penises, period jokes, pubes and utter puerile drivel that was served up as "comedy" in series 8.
     
  4. jimmydischarge

    jimmydischarge Third Technician

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    I thought the whole moose joke was pretty weak and the part where Lister spins around in a circle in frustration was really overacted. Besides that, I didn't mind that Trojan. Not my favourite or my least favourite episode of RDX. But then again, I wasn't really all that crazy about that whole season to be honest. None of the episodes really jumped out at me.
     
  5. AJ Smegface

    AJ Smegface Second Technician

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    As a fan, a big fan even, of Trojan, I can certainly agree with you on that. For me, Trojan felt like the first genuine continuation of Red Dwarf since Series VIII (not that I discount Back To Earth, but this was RD back in its familiar studio-based sitcom surroundings, it just feels more right somehow).

    But more than anything else, I like Trojan because it was funny. The bits that mtullock referred to are favourites of mine too, and I thought Howard Rimmer was a great character (and played very well Mark Dexter, I'd love to see him return if I'm honest...). Also, I get a kick out of the whole glitching Rimmer thing. Can't quite explain why, but I do.
     
  6. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    The moose thing was really weak until the final pay off with Rimmer asking Cat, which was admittedly a great payoff to a very weak series of jokes. However this episode never felt like a real Red Dwarf episode.....it almost felt like a generic sitcom with a Red Dwarf overcoat to me, and I seem to be the only person who thought Howard was rubbish. I wish I liked those bits mentioned above but they all landed with a thud for me....still the "No, we hosed him down and gave him a hat" is still a line that cracks me up when I hear it.
     
  7. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The call centre joke didn't work for me, because if you're ringing to buy something - to give them money - then why would they keep you waiting. It's like Doug was trying to make a joke about calling a helpdesk and forgot that it was a home shopping network. There's a deleted scene where Lister asks why he's on hold when he's the last human alive so who else is calling. It's a good question, one I wish they'd left in because I would have liked to hear the answer.

    I wish there had been an explanation as to where exactly Howard and Sim had been pulled from. Kryten just says "Did the rod do this?", but of course the rod did it. Why else would Howard Rimmer suddenly rock up after three million years and act like they were all within a normal lifespan. If you're pulling them from the past then why did Howard have to be Hologram? He had to be a Hologram because the plot required him to crash at the end, but did we ever get an explanation as to how and when Howard had died? And is Howard still on Red Dwarf or did they leave him on Trojan? Red Dwarf can only sustain one hologram. But he's hardlight and got from the Columbus to the Trojan. I don't know how it works.
     
  8. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I never cared for Trojan myself (Fathers and Suns was the first episode of 10 that I really liked), and I'd place it just outside my all-time bottom ten episodes. I normally like Rimmer episodes too, but I find the story here uninteresting. As for the humour, the moose joke, which many people seem to cite as a standout moment in the episode, completely falls flat for me, coming across as a piece of forced, unfunny comedy. Equally forced was the 'being put on hold' stuff, which is drawn-out to a ridiculous degree and requires both Lister and Kryten to act completely out of character. It's the same with most of the comedy in this episode, actually. There's just a 'trying too hard' feeling about it - especially Howard using the T word, which was one of those things I always object to in comedy: the lazy use of swear words to get an easy laugh.
     
  9. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Bluey, I think you might be the only person here who actually hates this episode more then I do haha!
     
  10. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    I did like the moose pay off. I also liked Howard's reaction to the "demonstration" of touch telepathy. If you add those and your above list to "hosed him down and gave him a hat," then I regard that as a pretty good haul of laughs. Better than RD XI, if I'm honest (which I did like).

    Aside from laughs, I think bedfordfalls summed it up. Trojan just felt more "Dwarfy" than VII, VIII or BTE (which I do like, in varying degrees - but not as much as classic Dwarf).

    It was like they found the old Dwarf formula, and, rather than trying to reinvent it, simply hosed it down and gave it a hat.
     
  11. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    If it's obvious that the rod did it - and I fully agree that it is obvious - then why does it need spelling out? The introduction of the rod and timing of Howard's appearance make it perfectly clear what's going on.

    If anything, it (arguably) makes a nice change for Kryten to respond in a realistic way - rather than consulting the psi-scan or giving a spookily accurate "best guess" (ahem! :P).

    You're right that the story required it - but it's also quite handy, because it introduces some slight fuzz around when exactly Howard came from.

    For instance, if he was still alive, why would he recognise (and turn his nose up at) a mechanoid - who was built nearly two centuries after he was born? There's absolutely no evidence of mechanoids on pre-disaster Dwarf - or simulants either, for that matter ( I note that, while Cat asks most of the questions in Justice, Rimmer also seems unfamiliar with simulants, insofar as he calls them "androids" and has to be corrected).

    However, as a hologram, it's possible that Howard survived beyond his natural lifetime - which makes the oddity striking rather than outright impossible.

    Light bee? Rimmer regularly travels to locations which can't support any holograms at all.
     
  12. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    For me I think Trojan came as a great relief after what was a decidedly underwhelming IMO comeback with BtE.

    It wasn't perfect by a long shot, I felt it could have done without the call center bit and (Another case where I seem to be in the minority), the moose joke fell flat for me.

    The "Hosed him down" joke however had me laughing aloud, something pretty rare, I also felt that Howard's assessment of his brother was well done. Yes, it was a swear word, but it wasn't overly gratuitous and the delivery was spot on.

    As others have said, overall to me it felt the most Red-Dwarfy episode since Out of Time and a whilst it had a way to go, it genuinely felt that Red Dwarf was back.
     
  13. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Beyond "the rods did it", I would have liked some explanation around where Holo-Howard had come from and why he didn't seem suspicious that Rimmer was resurrected as a Hologram and his family didn't know, that he was promoted to captain and his family didn't know, and had apparently been captaining a ship for possibly hundreds of years and his family didn't know. He was still writing to them and telling them he'd passed and got promoted every time, so surely Howard would expect Rimmer to be a captain - in fact, Admiral - based on his letters home?

    There didn't seem to be any discussion about the fact they were both holograms. If I met my hologram-brother "how and when did you die?" would be one of the first questions I'd ask. We got a comment from Howard about "we thought you went down with that mining ship", but instead of saying "I did and that's why I'm a hologram", Rimmer denies it and makes out like he's still alive and doesn't have an H on his forehead.

    When Red Dwarf was flash-heated, the Rimmer family obviously got word that Rimmer was dead. So surely Howard would be asking "hang on, if you didn't die in the Red Dwarf accident, then how did you survive, why haven't you contacted us in X hundred years, why didn't JMC contact us to tell us they'd made a mistake, how have we not heard of you being a captain for all this time".

    Maybe in Howard's time, ships could maintain multiple holograms. If they could still only sustain one then we have to ask why he was chosen. If hardlight holograms aren't dependent on the ship then I wonder if they could create a hardlight Kochanski hologram if they found another lightbee. Like at the end of Trojan where Howard's lightbee is left on the floor. What was going on with Sim's laser-gun killing a hardlight hologram.
     
  14. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    As far as a hardlight Kochanski goes, I think that question was raised in Stoke Me a Clipper (two hardlight Rimmers on Starbug) and arguably as early as Holoship (Binks and Rimmer both on Starbug).

    Interesting point about Howard being hardlight. He must be, because Lister handles him during the Touch T scene. That would seem to suggest that he made it to the 23rd Century at least - probably later (we know that Legion was created by the greatest minds of the 23rd Century - but when did he invent the hard-light drive?).

    I guess that, like Rimmer, Howard had his own adventures in space and time before being yanked to the far future, and out-lived his own era.
     
  15. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I wonder what Howard thought of Cat. He didn't make any comment about his fangs.
     
  16. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Well Rimmer did introduce him as part of their 'inter-species' program, so he had an idea old Gerald wasn't human, perhaps he thought it rude to ask.
     
  17. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Must have assumed Cat was a new GELF he'd never seen before. Though quite what the point of a regular-human-but-with-fangs would be is anyone's guess.
     

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