Would annoying hard core fans have liked RD 7 if..

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Ant E, Apr 29, 2009.

  1. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Rimmer was in the whole thing???

    Imagine Kochanski wasn't in any of it... and Rimmer was in all 8 episodes...

    Personally I think seven is a brilliant series (apart from beyond a joke)!

    If Rimmer had been in the whole thing it would have had a totally different perception from irritating, nit picky fans!
     
  2. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Given that they are annoying, then clearly the answer is yes, they would still dislike it, because if they didn't, they wouldn't be annoying, which was established at the beginning (sort of like that old "Who's the bus driver?" riddle).

    Was this a trick question?
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I know I really enjoyed Tikka to Ride and quite liked episode 2(although it felt short). I enjoyed Ouroboros without Rimmer being in it but would have preferred it if Parallel Kochanski had gone back to her own Universe at the end of it. Having Lister lust after his own mother is just frankly weird.
    The rest of the series her character and acting just didn't work for me with the exception of maybe bits of Epideme. I found her reduced role far more bearable in series 8.

    On a side note, why does everyone hate Beyond a Joke so much? The only thing I didn't really like about it was the stupid unexplainable "dressing up as Gelfs" bit but compared to the ludicrous "mirror universe" bit in 8 that practically made sense.
     
  4. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    I didn't like series 7 because of: the look, the lack of Rimmer, and Kochanski.
    If only Chris had stayed. I think the parallel Kochanski in uroboros is a great episode idea but the fact she stays for an intire series is, well, beyond a joke.
     
  5. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    The whole question is pretty ridiculous. The first poster tries to establish without argument that the absence of Rimmer is the only thing one could dislike about Season 7, and in the next breath, undercuts his own point by admitting that he himself doesn't like Beyond a Joke.

    There's not really any point even trying to give a serious answer when he's admitted up front that he's going to disregard any criticism as nitpicking. To show just how ridiculous the question is, consider this part, especially:

    Well gee, I imagine I'd like Ouroboros a whole lot less, if if it was written so that Rimmer was Lister's mum, rather than Kochanski. Is that what he meant? How ridiculous. Or did he mean "would you like Ouroboros better if it had been a totally different episode?" That's even more ridiculous. How could anyone answer a question like that? "Yes, I'd like Ouroboros better if it were Back to Reality." :roll:
     
  6. GTaDave

    GTaDave Catering Officer

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    Lol Ive said something in another post about the OP Like Name Like Nature unfortunatly. I get the feeling we will get more posts whinging about stuff yet.:-(
     
  7. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    Although i'd love to dismiss Tex as a pedantic little so and so, the man has a point.
    And it does seem ANTIeverything is indeed anti-everything
     
  8. GTaDave

    GTaDave Catering Officer

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    Thats what I said Jack
     
  9. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I'm sure we know what ANTIAnything means though.

    Would fans have disliked Series 7 so much if Rimmer had remained in it and Kochanski hadn't? Obviously that would require changes in episode stories, but just imagine a series that was as similar as possible accomodating those changes. So yes the Ouroboros stuff concerning Kochanski and the paradox wouldn't occur.

    I think ANTIAnything brought up 'Beyond a Joke' as an example of something they dislike, not to disprove their point, but to prove it. I.e. it's the only story in series 7 they dislike, so largely they see series 7 as a success, at least from a story point of view. Therefore, is it fair to assume that those fans who dislike series 7 do so mainly due to the change in cast?

    It's good to read peoples statements in context instead of picking them apart and putting them down for the sake of it. If you think something they say is genuinely contradictory, ask them to clarify.

    I personally think he/she has a point. From a storyline point of view, I think most of the episodes are pretty good. There are logic holes, etc, but there always have been in RD. Part of the fun of RD is to take certain sci-fi concepts and to take it to silly extremes and have fun with it.

    Then again I'm biassed as I like the series. (even Beyond a Joke which is actually a favourite episode of mine. ;-) ) I think a big part of my opinion is that the change of cast really didn't bother me that much*, and I think Chloe Annette did a great job.

    I think the change of look with the filmic affect and 360 degree sets may have bothered some fans too. I thought it looked great, but such changes can divide opinion.

    To sum up, is the change of cast the only reason most hard-cored fans dislike series 7? I'd say no, it's not the only reason, but it's probably the main one.

    *Much as I like Rimmer a lot, and I'm certainly glad he returned.
     
  10. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    And I'm not speaking from a position of hating Season 7. I actually like quite a lot of it. It's not as good as what came before, but I'd watch seasons equal in quality to 7 as long as they kept putting them out.

    It does have some flaws, though. Kochanski being a "substitute" for Rimmer doesn't really work. She has part of his personality, but the more annoying bits are transferred to Kryten, who doesn't wear them as well. I'm one of the ones who really liked Duct Soup, but I hate Kryten's whining fits. The idea of having him afraid of Lister liking Kochanski better is good, but it's overplayed.

    That's another reason why you can't really ask if you'd like an episode with Rimmer in it instead of Kochanski. It wouldn't play as written, because Kochanski has only part of Rimmer's personality. She has his middle class upbringing parts, but not the smeghead parts. She's classier than Lister and the Cat in a way that Rimmer wasn't. Things like The Magic Flute game are great with Kochanski, but wouldn't work for Rimmmer without alterations. His upbringing is better than Listers but his tastes just aren't that much more sophisticated. The "third largest city in Vietnam" and "coastal rainfall in Venezuela" jokes are funny with Kochanski, but wouldn't be funny with Rimmer, because the whole joke is based around her being smarter and nerdier than them, which she really is, but Rimmer isn't. (Some things might work almost as written, though. I can imagine Rimmer and Kryten fighting over where the salad cream should go, and the bit about "my greatest achievement isn't a line on a loo wall marking my highest ever pee" would work with Rimmer, but it's funnier with Kochanski.)


    Beyond a Joke is the one that even the original poster panned, but I loved the Jane Austen World sequence. In fact, I liked most of it except the ending. I didn't feel any emotion over Able's sacrifice. ("He sacrificed himself for them? Well, of course he did, they had to get rid of him by the end of the episode.") I didn't really understand why he did it, and it didn't seem to mean much to me. (I also didn't understand why he couldn't be repaired. He seemed to be pretty much intact at the end.) Some more lines establishing his motivation might have made the end work better. In fact, I think that episode would have played a lot better if Lister and Able had had the talk about Professor Mamet, rather than Lister and Kryten, and that Able sacrificed himself to keep Kryten from finding out about it.




    Another problem I have with the season is that I like Chloe Annett, but I don't buy her as "Kochanski". They didn't just re-cast the part, they totally changed her personality. Her character is just not the "Little Red Haired Girl" character that Lister mooned over in Seasons 1 and 2. I like her, but she's somebody else, maybe somebody else that Lister dated on Red Dwarf, but not Kochanski. I can imagine him wanting to go to bed with her, but can't imagine him carrying the torch for her forever, like he did with Claire Grogan. (On the other hand, I would have bought Suzanne Rhatigan in the part, if she'd gotten it permanently, as she was quite similar.)
     
  11. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Tex Rimmer was just sticking his nose in as usual!!!!!!
     
  12. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    That's pretty much how I feel concerning that episode. I didn't really dislike the ending though (although using the nega-drive to flood the ship with negativity struck me as a bit hokey at the time. I don't mind it now though.) but I didn't really understand why Able couldn't have been prepared either. (Did he lose those nanomachines too? Why are they only available when we have ships and arms to reconstruct?*)

    I understood Able's motivation though. He was essentially a slave to the simulant, and despite his addiction he isn't a bad guy at heart. This wasn't the only time he saved them either. He provided a distraction when the simulant boarding party beamed aboard.

    No doubt he felt guilty after exposing them in the asteroid field and, feeling guilty, felt the need to repay. If he is anything like Kryten (and I think we can assume they started of pretty much identical) guilt is a major personality trait in that model. They're programmed to serve, he (unwittingly) put them in danger. Now he is making things right.

    *That leads me to something that I wasn't too keen on. I like the idea of the nanobots as part of the 4000 series repair system. It certainly explains how Kryten could repair himself from a cube shape in series 6.... except it doesn't cos the nanobots had left by then...(maybe they left in batches? ) Utilizing them to recreate an entire ship seemed to be taking things too far though. Not the concept in itself, just that such a powerfull technology was with Kryten for so long.

    I guess it could be explained with machine evolution, i.e. the nanobots start off only being able to perform minor repairs, but have recreated/upgraded themselves over the centuries. Bearing in mind Kryten is well past his expiry date. Even so, it's a bit of a stretch. Overall it didn't bother me that much though. It certainly goes with RD's 'sci-fi to extreme' theme. I would have preferred a different explanation to Red Dwarf's hijack though.

    She is certainly different form Grogan's Kochanski. While I can certainly see Grogan's version as being the type of girl Lister could end up with, I think ultimately Annette's fits the character the creators had in mind. From the beginning they suggested that she was someone apparently beyond his reach, right back in thar flashback scene in the disco in series 1. You never really got that impression with Grogan. To be fair we didn't see all that much of her anyway.

    Annette's Kochanski certainly fits the lady of Last Human though. The book's version is more saucy, and is very much in love with Lister, but apart from that she is spot on for Chloe. In her new role as a more central character, I think Chloe Annete's Kochanski fits well.
     
  13. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    At your invitation... :eek:ops: (How embarrassing for you)
     
  14. lynseyjinn

    lynseyjinn First Technician

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    Tex is not "sticking his nose in", he's stating his opinion. Do you have to be so hostile all the time?
     
  15. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    *sniggers* well he is ANTI everything...

    I'm guessing what the real question was "Ooh all these nit-picky fans don't like series seven because of kochanski and no Rimmer."
    It's more of a statement than a question, and his hostility to nit-picky fans is puzzling, i believe that series 7 would have been made greater if Rimmer was around and Kochanski only apeared for Uroboros, aside from that most people just didn't like the jokes or feel or stories, that's not nit-picky that's just taste.
     
  16. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Yeah, it's probably something like that. That's why I think it wouldn't take much tweaking to make the episode much better. And I still think the best tweak would be to have the heart-to-heart talk between him and Lister, and Kryten never finds out what's in the file. Make it something similar to the deleted scene where Ace talks about how he had been recruited by the previous Ace during the French Revolution (a scene I wish had made the final cut, as it was rather neat). Give us some small glimpse of what Able was like before he became a Zonie and how he can't bear to see it happen to Kryten too. We never saw any of his serious side.

    I don't think the episode is fundamentally flawed, it's just that you don't feel much over Able's sacrifice, because you don't get to know him well enough. The silliness of the nega-drive doesn't help, either. I don't mind having it in the episode, but I wish he had used something less silly for that job. Something a little grimmer.


    Yeah, that was a problem I had too. I liked a lot of Nanarchy, the one-armed jokes and things worked pretty well (Nelson wouldn't have beat the French if Trafalgar had been an arm-wrestling tournament. 24-hour Wipe Alert, et cetera), as did the "Hand, pick up the ball" bit. It was certainly nice getting Norm back, but the Nanobot revelation came as something of a letdown. Not sure why.
     
  17. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    Because they'd been pursuing a vapour trail for two series and to find out that Red Dwarf was turned into a planetoid and the nanobots were in the socks basket was well damn anti-climactic.
     
  18. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Yeah, that's certainly true. Also unsatisfying is the fact that we'd never heard of them before. Imagine if the ending had been that Red Dwarf had been hijacked by the Bruconians. (The who??)

    Learning that Red Dwarf had been destroyed rather than hijacked was quite a letdown too. Geez, they blew up the Enterprise, wasn't that enough?

    I'm not sure what they could have done that would have been better, though. Maybe if the ship had been hijacked by a group of Cats still hidden on one of the lower decks? That might have been interesting if they'd returned a few centuries later, and found a Cat society on parts of the ship. Turn the Dwarf into a "world" of its own. They might have even been able to work in the Identity Within story and have it take place onboard ship.
     
  19. Smegbot

    Smegbot Second Technician

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    yes.

    and yes.
     
  20. kochanskitis

    kochanskitis Third Technician

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    At the time it was first shown i was so disappointed about the lack of rimmer that i wasn't willing to let myself truly enjoy it. Plus the fact it wasn't the original kochanskis. Later when i rewatched & accepted the changes i was rather impressed. In hindsight i think the introduction of Kochanskis was essential to actually gave lister a bit more direction/purpose. Red Dwarf's always been about changing the dynamics of the crew and their environment but i think because it was such a big character that was taken out people railed against it. On the whole i think she'd settled into the dynamic quite well by the end of the series, it was just such a pity that series 8 was such a mess. But as far as series 7 is concerned I really enjoyed the non rimmer episodes -Ouroboros, Epideme, Beyond a joke & duct soup.
     

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