Would annoying hard core fans have liked RD 7 if..

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Ant the Dragon, Apr 29, 2009.

  1. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

    Messages:
    411
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    It seems that most people are of the opinion that series VII was perhaps not that bad.
    Not as good as VI but under the circumstances, possibly as good as it could have been.
    I was hugely disappointed when it became clear that Chris Barrie was leaving but they probably handled that as well as they could have done by having him return throughout the series.

    I was also disappointed that Claire Grogan was replaced. She was not only the Kochanski of the earlier series but also the one that Lister shared BTL and Last Human with in my imagination in the novels.

    That said, I like Chloe and think she did okay with the almost impossible task of replacing two much loved characters in an established show. A no win situation for her really.
     
  2. platini

    platini Third Technician

    Messages:
    35
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2009

    Ah, I see. It's MY fault that I don't enjoy Series 7 as much as Series 1-6. There was me thinking that the changed dynamics of losing a major character and a lowering of the writing quality were to blame whereas it's actually my problem because I responded so well to Series 1-6. Complete and utter shash.

    The main priciple that make me dislike Series 7 in comparison to Series 1-6 is that it isn't as good. That's why I don't enjoy it as much: the writing is coarser (the bit about "ripping out half your thatch"). The greater emphasis on unnecessary CG effects. The lack of the audience - I think performance is enhanced with a live audience present and laughing. Jokes, more in 8 than in 7, are overstretched (see you in ten minutes, the increasingly absurd salutes).

    And it's true: I'm NOT the writer and it WAS up to Doug Naylor. I don't need to be the writer to say that the writing wasn't as good and the jokes weren't as funny, any more than I need to be a doctor to point out that the person who IS a doctor has cut the wrong leg off. Look at Future Echoes: that sublimely written "You've just come in here and said those exact same things" scene. The nearest thing to that level of dialogue in Series 7 is the "So we did plant a bomb" scene, and I can't even remember what episode that was.

    I don't think that to be a fan you have to believe that everything is of equal quality. They're not. Even within a series, they're not. Even within an episode, they're not.

    (Oh, and I don't think I've mentioned the specials since joining here - but I did like them. I still don't think they're up there with Series 1-6 for writing quality and ideas quality, but they are better than 7/8.)
     
  3. platini

    platini Third Technician

    Messages:
    35
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2009
    My understanding of the Bob Dylan reference was that there were fans so hardcore that they wouldn't accept Bob Dylan using a different guitar and refused to listen to it. In the same way that a hardcore Red Dwarf fan might refuse to watch an episode with Chloe Annett because she's not Clare Grogan. (My personal Bob Dylan position is that I don't like his music and find it annoying. I'm certainly not wrong for disliking it any more than someone else is wrong for liking it.) I don't like Better Than Life, I don't like Waiting For God. In comparison to other episodes in their respective serieses, they're not as funny and I don't enjoy them as much.

    As I said somewhere, I'm softcore rather than hardcore, I'm flexible but not so flexible that I'm going to accept everything without comment or criticism just because it's Dwarf. I'm not anti-BTE - I did enjoy them - and I hope there's more Dwarf and I hope it's good.
     
  4. kochanskitis

    kochanskitis Third Technician

    Messages:
    44
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    While i'm not immune to series 7's faults i do think there is a degree where some people just won't accept it because there's no rimmer. Personally i like the changing dynamics the brief loss of rimmer forced. i liked the sojourn into kryten's jealousy, Lister's renewed vigour now he's got something else to live for other than curry and a lager. I think it's a pity the cat's episode got cut as i think he's well overdue a chance to step outside the shackles that risk hemming in the character. I would have liked to have seen Rimmer's reaction to suddenly having to obey a senior officer's orders as shown in 'last human' but that wasn't to be. I don't see the huge fall in the writing standards some people see. There's clearly a change but my own view is that a fall is evident when doug removed all the other writers for season 8. There's a couple of Kochanski's jokes i don't quite think work as they're too cutting but on the whole i'd still have s7 as my 5/6 favourite of the 9 red dwarf installments. Maybe i like it because i don't expect kochanskis to fill Rimmer's role. She may take his seat but the comic interplay between characters has a different structure. She's more the foil of the humour than Rimmer regularly was. Other characters delivering the punchline which she sets up.
     
  5. JimmyJames

    JimmyJames Third Technician

    Messages:
    35
    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Location:
    New Westminster, BC Canada
    yes...


    Red Dwarf minus Rimmer equals Lame
     
  6. roebeet

    roebeet Third Technician

    Messages:
    49
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    I am one of those fans who does feel Series 7 is weaker than the ones preceding it. I gave this some thought and, assuming that the post Rimmer episodes were of similar writing quality as the first two episodes, I think I would have liked Series 7 more with Rimmer. Reasons:

    - Having Rimmer around is better than Kochanski. I guess this comment is fairly obvious - the Rimmer / Lister relationship is the backbone of the show... period. You can add Kochanski as a recurring character (like in Series Eight), but you need Rimmer around.

    - Kryten's annoying whining, in regards to Kochanski. It was totally overdone, imo. Without Kochanski having an integral part in the show would have (hopefully) meant that his whining would have been downplayed, somewhat.

    - Possibly bringing back Clare Grogan? Since "Ouroboros" may have been the only appearance of Kochanski, perhaps Clare Grogan could have been convinced to make a one-time appearance? Having her in it would have automatically improved this episode, imo.

    - Beyond a Joke / Epideme / Nanarchy would have improved. I mention these three, as they would have likely existed with Rimmer in them, although there would have to be some re-writes.

    In BAJ, we'd have to find a different reason for Kryten to blow his top. But imagine the bickering between Rimmer / Lister while trying to figure out how to fix him? And Rimmer definitely would not have accepted Able into the RD family that easily, which would have made his death even more poignant.

    In Epideme / Nanarchy, Lister's lost arm due to Rimmer's incompetence would have made much more sense (and would have been funnier, in a creepy sort of way). Rimmer also would not have been so quick to stop Lister from killing himself either - Kryten would have taken the Kochanski role there, to stop him. And in Nanarchy, Lister would have been more likely angry at Rimmer (and the ensuing arguments) versus him being depressed and slowing the story down. Lister would have probably investigated the nanobots arm fix on his own, which again would have been more interesting. Rimmer would have been blocking his path, with more arguments of course (and maybe punching Rimmer with the artifical arm, instead of Kryten?).

    Bottom line: The friction between Lister / Rimmer kept the show moving along. Moving some of this friction to Kryten and Kochanski just doesn't work as well.
     
  7. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

    Messages:
    2,908
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    I didn't dislike Kochanski's return to the show, but you do make some interesting points. Regarding this:

    I found Kryten's whining irritating too. (Actually I found it quite amusing to start with but it got old fast. Angry explosive Kryten in Beyond a Joke was funny though.) However, I don't see Kochanski's return as being to blame. Sure that's why he reacted like that, but before Series 7 we had no indication that would be how he would react, should she return. As an example read Last Human. Kochanki is a member of the crew in that story, and there is none of the Kryten whining. In short, the crewmembers could have reacted in very different ways to Kochanski's return. The choice they made was just one route they took. And I can see how Kryten being jealous could seem funny. Arguably it was, but maybe it should have been toned down somewhat.

    Your good points aside, Rimmer's departure wasn't too big of a deal to me, much as I like the character. 1, he was in more episodes than people tend to think (half the series in fact. Sometimes in backflash form, but they were some of the funniest scenes.) And 2) I think exploring the change in group dynamic* was interesting. Kochanski wasn't as funny as Rimmer, but then she wasn't meant to be. And I think she led to very funny jokes, albeit it was other characters with the punchline. I.e. The Squeaky gate. 'Hu'. (Not her joke, but Lister's comment after.)

    *Groan. Why does that phrase seem so cliche...
     
  8. Ant the Dragon

    Ant the Dragon Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    6,774
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    See what I mean.... MORON!
     
  9. Dismembers

    Dismembers Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    2,337
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Location:
    London
    What a terrible way to treat a poster who had only been here 7 days.
     
    Mardroid likes this.
  10. Rudolph

    Rudolph Third Technician

    Messages:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2016
    I just don't think the new Kochanski worked as someone Lister would fancy. She's written as a bit too posh and cultured to even talk to a bum like Lister.

    I mean, what we see of the original Kochanski you can understand why Lister likes her. She's less of a posh aristocrat and more of a working class girl done good. She has a cheeky, flirty sense of humour and enjoys clubbing in the ship's disco. I can't imagine the later Kochanski doing any of that.
     
  11. squeal mold

    squeal mold Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    5,442
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    the hatred I feel for season 7 is like a microscopic particle in eternal space compared to what I feel for season 8
     
    Ant the Dragon likes this.
  12. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    2,041
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Location:
    Red Dwarf, Deep space
    Doug evolved Kochanski so she would be flawed and funny.
     
  13. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

    Messages:
    846
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Location:
    Deep Space in the 15th Century
    There is no such thing as an annoying hard core fan.
     

Share This Page