Would Series X have been better with CGI?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by BadWolf117, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    One of the things of Series X is the way the models were filmed and used- they seemed rather
    static almost like a cardboard cut out placed in front of a greenscreen or starfield
    i was thinking should it have been better if they just used the CGI ship of Red Dwarf from Back to Earth
    (IMO better than the series X ship) dont get me wrong i abosoutely hated the CGI of Series 7 and 8 but i cant describe it
    but the models (with the exception of Blue Midget in The Beginning) were done poorly
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    While some of the modelwork looked a bit dodgy in X there was some that was fantastic. The Trojan for example and much of the simulant ship stuff of The Beginning.

    But would CGI have fared better in the poor looking sequences? I'm not convinced. And I'm not a hater of CGI as a whole.
     
  3. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Problem with the early Cgi for series 8 and the remastered is that it did indeed look Cartoony and showed us that models just looked better and more believable

    With series 10 the red dwarf model I think was the main issue being they just cut the remastered model down so the scale and shape of it looks abit off and looks like it had to be filmed very carefully to get good shots, but would CgI have been better? Well the shot of blue midget flying towards a planet in entangled tells me that models look loads better then any cgi they could do with their budget

    And with BTE they didn't have the budget to zoom in on the cgi red dwarf, I assume they couldn't give it the detail *shrug*
     
  4. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    I believe some of the model shots were re done as the firm hired to do it didn't do it well and up to the standard that Doug Naylor wanted, watch the dvd extras. I think the model shots that were in the broadcast were very good and in keeping with what Red Dwarf is about.

    So for me personally
    Models = YES
    Cgi = it has its place
     
  5. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    i know but when you go from Back To Earth to Series X the ship looks nothing alike
    The BTE ship looks like The ship from Series 1-7 but Series X it looks like the model ship for Series 8 only sliced in half
    and painted darker red

    with the exception of a couple model shots (the scene in Trojan and The Beginning) the rest of the model shots looked ghastly
    they looked like they were cardboard cutouts
    Compare this:
    [​IMG]

    with this:
    [​IMG]

    i know its nothing that the team couldnt fix (given the price of the motion controlled camera) and the budget issues- its understandale but it just feels a bit more disapointing
     
  6. PFMC84

    PFMC84 Catering Officer

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    Personally I found much of the model shots (if indeed they all were models and not ropey CGI) in X to be disappointing. That shot of Blue Midget that's seen at the start of the opening credits highlighted above was particularly bad. The one shot of Starbug flying also looked like a static shot that was zoomed in on to give the impression of movement. The repeated use of the same shot of a CGI rocket passing the camera 4 (or was it 6?) times in The Beginning also grated.

    There was some good stuff, the Trojan one mainly and Red Dwarf itself, but I found the others really poor.
     
  7. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    A difficult one. I was wondering whether the models didn't have the same appeal in X because everything is hi-def now - we've got super state-of-the-art tellies and bleeding edge resolution - is this why they don't look as good? Models can still be excellent, depending on if you can't "see the modelwork" as it were. The models in series 1-6 looked excellent - I'm still amazed by some of it, especially the asteroid bit from Psirens.

    However, yes, in RDX they did look a bit ropey from time to time. The shots of Red Dwarf itself, I thought, were probably too clear and showed off that some of the ship looked too "clean and flat", and I could tell that the camera was moving, rather than the ship itself. Again, could it be that it's too hi-def?

    Series 7 used a lot of CGI, but everyone involved said that they just didn't have the time or budget, which was why it had the motion-blur - in order to help reduce the amount of rendering required I think. Some of this was redone for the DVD. Series 8 was, again, mostly CGI and actually some not bad CGI - I quite liked the diving bell (good water wibbly effects) and the train system inside Red Dwarf itself - good quick nod back to Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers. Only problems I had were the blur from series 7, and the lack of shadows on the Cat in the Blue Midget dance.

    I am torn between whether RDX would be better with CGI or models. I am impressed at what they actually accomplished with the models in RDX - I can't actually think of any other shows off the top of my head which has used models so much, in such high definition, and doing the sort of stuff from The Beginning. Yeah, there was what appeared to be a "zoom-in" Starbug to represent movement. Some of the stuff from The Beginning did look a bit ropey. And Red Dwarf itself, and it's fly-bys, need improving. But it's good to see them still being used, and does lend the series a nice nostalgic air. But I am still open as to CGI, especially given what can be done with it now.

    As an aside, perhaps the model crew could look into 3D printing models?
     
  8. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Actually the ship from BtE is pretty much the Movie version chopped down with a bit out of the middle, albeit digitally.

    The one from X is themovie's actual physical model with a bit cut out the middle. And refurbished, of course.

    So they're pretty similar, although the ram scoop is comparatively much bigger on the X version and I think the booster might be different, so I guess they made a couple more changes digitally for Series 8.

    Look at the proportions, lenght to width. The ship from series 1-6 is much more squat. The versions from BtE and X remain proportionally slim, just not very long.
     
  9. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    I actually think IMHO the model work in X despite the production problems was really rather good. Could it be even better for XI - probably. But for me it is better than CGI which I thought was rubbish in BTE (again a matter of opinion I guess). The bottom line for me is that the model work helped provide X with an authentic and close to vintage RD feel. The Beginning and Trojan in particular had stunning model work. So for me the usage of models was one of the strong points to X.

    I thought anyway that RDX won an award for its model work a few weeks ago. Or was it something else - I am not sure?
     
  10. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    Yes this! i absoutely hate the boosters of Series 8 an X its one of those things which enrages me everytime i see it
    i wish that they would either change it or get rid of it
     
  11. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    Has it not become a bit of a running theme that by the time they get to the model or cgi shots and even the music score, that the budget has ran out and that there was not a separate model/cgi shot budget, and that it was meant to come out of the main budget.

    I have heard Doug say this on a few different series commentaries if my memory serves me right, but I could be way off mark as well.

    So if this has happened a couple of times before then would it not be wise to find out what budgets are set up for what production purposes before hand thus avoiding a last minute reshuffle of funds etc.
     
  12. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Where did the train system appear? I seem to have missed it!
     
  13. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    There were a few shots of a sort of monorail type pod type thing running up or down The Tank, to be fair it looked more like a sort of high speed elevator to me rather than a train system.
     
  14. Mark42

    Mark42 Skutter

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    The problem is that this series was done on a very tight budget, I was disappointed by the limited special effects but what they did looked alright. CGI only looks good when you spend money and time on it and they had very little of that, so models were the best option in my opinion.
     
  15. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    Well said jmc :-D
     
  16. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    The train system appears (very briefly) in the Pete episodes, when they're heading to face the dino. You can see basically all of it in the RD8 trailer too... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OkdOscmjCo (skip to 1:20).
     
  17. yeckel

    yeckel Console Officer

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    Hmmm...am I the only one thinking this topic is a bit along the lines of nit-pickery? My personal opinion is Red Dwarf is a quirky comedy. Little bits of imperfection help keep the show feeling light. Besides, I've seen many examples of shots far worse in documentary production?

    And no...please don't twist my wording into stating that quality doesn't matter. That is not what I am implying at all. Personally, I find what was put together completely fitting with the show. I don't want Red Dwarf to take itself too seriously.
     

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