Caroline Flack

Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by Nikki the Great, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Is d....no sorry, I'm not doing that. Sorry.

    I genuinely wanna know people's opinions on this! This might not be the best place to do this either, but I don't do social media and I doubt 4chan are interested, so I'm gonna try it here.

    I'm in two minds. Not saying I'm in huge emotional turmoil about it, although my sympathies are with anyone who loved and cared about her, but my moral compass is all over the place on this one.

    So first of all I have been a victim of domestic violence. Several times. Most of my relationships since I was a teenager have been abusive. Things like being held at knife point, having my head repeatedly smacked off a wall and having bottles smashed on me. Serious stuff. So when I heard Caroline Flack had allegedly smashed a lamp over her boyfriend's head, my sympathy was with him.

    But I've also been in some very dark places. When I first returned to the forum just over 4 years ago, I was very unwell. Suicidal. I look back at that time and I honestly don't know how I'm still alive now. Not much more I want to say on that actually. Blah. Soooo when iIheard Caroline Flack had killed herself, my sympathies were with her for being in that place of despair.

    But...what do we do? What is right and wrong here?

    I don't believe attacking someone is ok. Not at all. Doesn't matter if it's a woman doing it to a man either, although I disagree with a lot of memes that get shared by incel types, who say there are more male victims than female. That just isn't true. But male victims do certainly exist and it's not right that it happens or ok for it to happen if the perpetrator is a woman.

    I suppose what we have to remember here though, is that the incidents were alleged, not proven. Regardless...SOMETHING happened that drove Caroline Flack's boyfriend to call the police and for her to then be charged and the case sent to trial. That doesn't happen lightly.

    I have seen comments and criticism of the CPS over this, that they pushed this case to trial for "show". I don't believe that to be the case at all.

    Now I know Caroline Flack's boyfriend didn't want to press charges and people think the CPS pushing it was wrong and for show. That's not true. They always do that, if there's enough evidence. I called the police on a partner that was literally throwing me around the room and punching me. I managed to get him outside and secure the door, with me inside. Whilst on the phone to the police, he literally destroyed the front door, which they heard. Similarly to this case (from what I've read), the police came round, arrested my then boyfriend, photographed all the bruising to my face and body and the damage to the door and took a statement. I didn't want to press charges however, because in my mind "I loved him". CPS pushed the case forward to court. They even threatened to pull me out of my brother's wedding if I refused to cooperate (due to a date clash).

    On one hand, it was all very aggressive and stressful and I began blaming myself and struggling with the guilt of involving the police (which my ex played on). I cursed the CPS, as it sounds like Caroline Flack's boyfriend does. But it's just what they do. They were right to in my case ultimately, as his attacks became more and more violent. I was afraid to call the police again, due to all that happened, until I was imprisoned in my own home for several days after breaking up with him and attacked repeatedly. Should we really blame the CPS? They surely know what they're doing and the cycle of abuse, right?

    Now what if that boyfriend (or any other of my violent exes) killed himself following all this, or whilst waiting to stand trial? Who would be to blame? I've seen some angry fans of Caroline Flack's blaming her partner for calling the police. I've seen some blaming the CPS for pushing it to trial. But who was really to blame? How would I feel, if this had happened to me and suddenly everyone was saying what a great guy my ex was and how sorry they were that all this had happened to HIM? I can't quite wrap my head around it.

    Having said that, I am not in the same position as Caroline Flack was. Any mistakes I have made or things that I am ashamed of are not plastered all over the tabloids. If she was a vulnerable woman (and I don't know if she was or not, but she was clearly in a vulnerable place at the time), should her personal life be open to all of us to jeer at? Are the media to blame then?

    I have seen others say she killed herself to avoid standing trial and facing the consequences of her actions. A cowards way out, like Fred West or Ariel Castro. Is there any truth to that?

    I wish I knew what to think, so I'm putting it out there to see if I can get any sensible(ish) opinions. Cos this one's put my head in a proper spin and I don't know where I stand. Help me out?
     
    Cloud likes this.
  2. Alexandra

    Alexandra First Technician

    Messages:
    164
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    I know only that incels are celebrating now, they are people trying to make all women look like witches, leaches and privileged sluts. Violence is bad who ever does it. But if we start gender wars again we know who would draw shortest straw as always.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  3. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Hmmmm, I'm in two minds @Alexandra! I think on one hand, there is some truth in the whole "women get away with domestic violence more than men", because obviously people will instantly look at obvious differences such as size, strength etc - typically women are smaller and perceived as "weaker".

    But on the other hand, I agree with what you're saying. Chris Brown beat Rhianna to a pulp and is still celebrated and excused frequently. He won many awards post-Rhianna, which always completely baffled me. Maybe to a lesser extent...but Eminem has made the most horrendous songs about murdering his wife, her husband and 4 year old stepson, but gets elevated to God status when he so much as scratches his nuts.

    Like I was getting at, this whole situation has me completely conflicted.
     
  4. Alexandra

    Alexandra First Technician

    Messages:
    164
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    No need to be conflicted. Violence is violence and life is complicated. But as you see it's all about " male nature " That's why " women get away with it " because they don't usualy do that stuff. And that's why men are alowed to rape, hit, cheat...and be violent. " It's their nature. " I think nobody prospers from that mindset.
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  5. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    I feel like me and you need to become friends
     
    Alexandra likes this.
  6. Asclepius

    Asclepius Console Officer

    Messages:
    3,564
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Location:
    Behind you
    I'm sorry to hear what you had to deal with. Judging from what I can read on this forum (and occasionally in chat), I hope your life is much better now and you finally have a boyfriend you deserve.

    I didn't know anything about Caroline Flack. I found out about her yesterday and I've read about her on Wikipedia and some news websites (including tabloids). The case is complicated. I see her life was full of 'mistakes' and problems. We don't know whether she was or was not guilty and maybe we will never find the truth. (Everything gets even more confusing by the interest of media.)

    It's a sad story on both sides. I think we will never really find out who was responsible.
    I guess the CPS process is OK only with enough of evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be very fair. Still, for cases of domestic violence connected with Stockholm syndrome it's a good way.
    Media definitely played a role, but as I don't know what they wrote at the beginning I'm not sure if we can blame them.

    Anyway, it's very complicated and very sad. I know almost nothing about it, so sorry if my thoughts are somehow out of place.
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  7. Cloud

    Cloud Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    7,753
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Location:
    Tex Rimmer
    I didn’t know who she was or her story really so this post is the first I am hearing it. I was sad to read all your post and now I resonated with you. I fully expected when I send this for it to be a picture of Jeremy beagle or Rupert the bear or something.

    I had known all your troubles before but it is terrible to read. Domestic violence against anyone man woman or horse is terrible and to be treated like that by someone you care about it insanity. I am always sad for anyone who feels killing themselves is the only way out. I have had depression and anxiety all my life and sometimes I just get low I feel there would be an easier way out. She of course should be held accountable for whatever she did to her partner but I don’t think it should be that. It’s always sad when it comes to it.

    Also I am glad you are doing well now Nikz and think as you said how you felt it was an option for your self four years ago and selfishly think of all the fun we would have missed if you had 4 years ago and how things would have been the same. I am glad you are doing much better and knowing your current situation know you are much happier.
     
    Asclepius and Nikki the Great like this.
  8. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Thank you for your kind words, my lovely Smurfy xxxx some interesting thoughts there too.
    I lol'd ridiculously hard at Rupert the bear :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Thank you Clooooud xxxxxxx you're an amazing friend to me and have listened to my troubled crap on many occasions. It's not selfish at all, I'm glad I stuck around too, we made some good trouble and messes in the past 4 years. So you must stick around too, cos basically the world needs us to do this. Also thanks for sharing your thoughts to help me on my quest to make sense of this while thing (that is really none of my business anyway).

    Ok SO...I have been doing some research. Here is what a former CPS prosecuter said of the case:
    [​IMG]
    This was sort of my understanding too, but having it laid out like that by someone who would be particularly knowledgeable about this sort of thing, makes it clearer, I think.

    There's also been a statement from a (female) domestic abuse survivor and charity founder, who says that the allegations can not be "sugar-coated" and "The CPS and police had every right and responsibility to charge her.

    We cannot not prosecute alleged domestic abusers because they may kill themselves... the police could have used victimless prosecution too without the victim's input."


    This too, rings true for me. Wouldn't we, as a country, end up in a huge mess if we were unable to prosecute people, for fear of their mental health issues?

    Perhaps the most interesting thing I found though, was from a commenter on some random site I never heard of before. I'll post her entire comment;

    "I have a very different take on Caroline Flack and it comes from working with and studying narcissistic personalities and narcissistic personality disorder.

    Obviously, I can’t say for sure/could never diagnose but here is a different take on what may have happened. Caroline appears to strongly fit the personality traits of a narcissist, and follows the traits of a domestic abuse perpetrator to the letter almost. Targets men whom are much younger, whom she can make believe they are lucky to be with her, whom may be financially dependent on her due to age etc, and other factors. She looks much younger than she is (a common trait amongst those who groom younger victims) and is deemed young and beautiful. When a person is labelled this way, people find it hard to associate them with a crime or the capacity to do bad things. This is especially true of a woman. However, Caroline has a history of very questionable relationships (eg Harry Styles) and quite often, if she had not been a woman, or had not been labelled a young and beautiful woman, would have had much harsher criticism (many times, rightly so).

    A narcissist will do anything to avoid criticism and what they feel contradicts their own high opinion of themselves.They revel in adoration, make their victims feel like things are their fault and I have known of many cases where a narcissist will indeed attempt suicide, or actually has committed suicide, in order to complete the ultimate act against their intended victim; to make their victim feel it was their fault, they caused the death, they're a bad person etc. This then causes so many issues for the victim and prevents them often from speaking out against any potential abusive relationships in the future.

    Considering that Caroline has committed suicide prior to the impending court case, her lawyers (apparently) having told her the strong possibility of a custodial sentence, the fact further details which may be quite harrowing will come out and so on, this may have been too much for her to consider as it doesn’t equate with her own view of herself. In addition, it could just be a further act of violence against her boyfriend. A case of “Look what you made me do” so to speak. It could also be that she never actually intended to commit suicide but that she attempted it to make those around her further feel how isolated she was etc and for the press to then change the way in which they report. None of these things would be uncommon in such a personality.

    The world we now live in has gone to the extreme regarding mental health. Everyone, everywhere, has a story about it or has a mental health issue or knows someone who does. This isn’t the case. Genuine mental health issues are not as common place and cannot be treated by simply CBT and chatting to a friend etc. They require so much more than that. To downplay them, which the rise of social media has done, has done real sufferers so much harm and has clogged the system.

    For people now to be saying Caroline was troubled, she was a beautiful person, be kind yet then blame others or go on her boyfriends accounts and post utter vitriol, is all wrong. The facts are she WAS an abuser, she committed a crime, she WAS violent, and she committed suicide and that was HER choice. No amount of press, ITV, Love Island, the CPS, the police etc will have made her ultimately choose to end her life. I don’t see it as a way out for her, she could have easily come back if she was prepared to apologise for what she had done, complete the court case etc. She would have had PR and/or family/friends advising her what to wear to court/do/say and she choose to seemingly ignore such advice with the actions she portrayed. Although twisted (you can’t understand such conditions without learning you have to view things in a way we would never usually think to comprehend), it may have been a way of potentially exercising more control, over her boyfriend and her overall image, and if that is true, then it worked. a true narcissist will not care that theyhave died as a result, the end result for them is the adoration and positive public view restored.

    Again, perhaps none of this is the case, perhaps the majority are right and my view of the world is altered because of my background, but this is just an alternative view, and one that more people should be potentially aware of to spot in relationships where domestic abuse may occur."

    That is something I feel I probably agree with, although it is of course speculation.

    I will add in here, for those of you who didn't know, at least one previous ex of Caroline Flack's has alleged that she was violent in their relationship. Another ex of hers is Harry Styles, a member of boyband One Direction. At the time of his relationship with Caroline Flack, she was 35 and he was just 17. In many countries that relationship would be illegal, in many others it's questionable to say the least...now if that was gender reversed? Would we call it gross?

    Just throwing all this out there and I really appreciate people reading and discussing this stuff with me. We CAN have sensible discussions! Yay us!
     
    Cloud likes this.
  9. Cloud

    Cloud Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    7,753
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Location:
    Tex Rimmer
    This is the most mature thread ever done and it hasn’t degenerated yet. A new record. Also I did my post typing on an iPad which seemed to have autocorrected tones of words which is why some of it looked like I was having a meltdown
     
    Asclepius and Nikki the Great like this.
  10. Ant E

    Ant E Science Officer

    Messages:
    14,402
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Willies

    I will work on my response and reply soon! An important thread.
    Surprised @neilold hasn’t commented
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  11. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    I think part of it is because whilst Neil is pretending to have me on ignore, he can't come into the thread and blab on about horror films.
    Because as much as he whinges about the lack of intelligent conversation/debate on here, he can't seem to contribute anything when one actually happens.

    Plus he went to prison for smashing a bottle over someone's head, so it might be a touchy subject.
     
  12. Spaceman

    Spaceman Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,105
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    [​IMG]
     
    neilold likes this.
  13. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Underdunn

    Underdunn Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,896
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    I didn't know who Caroline Flack was either before @Nikki the Great explained the story to me. I hadn't followed it at all, whereas she had - but then you do tend to follow stories that have personal resonance to you and your own life experiences, as this one did for her... on a couple of different levels, hence her confliction over it.

    I immediately hoped that Caroline's ex was going to be okay and that he wouldn't blame himself over it, or start thinking he was a bad person. I guess I wound up thinking that way because I've seen our Nikki heap similar blame on herself, time and time again. She still does it now.

    And maybe that makes ME a bad person too, for 'taking a side' - based on my own connections and experiences rather than the facts of what actually happened in this case, which I guess none of us fully know.

    There aren't any winners when something like this happens.
     
    Asclepius and Nikki the Great like this.
  15. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    9,310
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    A rare insight into the real @Nikki the Great there :lol: love yooooou xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    I'm glad you mentioned the ex, that's something I think a lot of people out there have missed so far...unless it's to go on his social media and blame him.

    The ex was surely not wrong to call the police if, as the apparent 999 recording was going to show, he was hit over the head with a lamp whilst sleeping and felt, in his own words, that Caroline Flack was "trying to kill him". You're at your most vulnerable when you're asleep. No matter what size you are compared to your attacker, you are defenseless if you're sleeping and someone chooses to strike you on the head with a hard object. What if she had killed him when she did this? Was he wrong to call the police?

    This brings me to the way people are attacking the ex now. These same people who are no doubt using that awful "bekind" hashtag now. Is it kind to hit someone with a lamp whilst sleeping? Is it kind to blame someone who called the police on the person who did this?

    That "bekind" hashtag is sooooo flawed too. Can we please remember the tv shows that Caroline Flack herself was associated with? I don't know enough about Love Island to comment, although I am aware two former contestants killed themselves, but what about X Factor? Is that not largely a show where the deluded, vulnerable and outright mentally ill are paraded before the public to mock and laugh at? Caroline Flack hosted both the sister show Xtra Factor and the main X Factor show. Did she consider the feelings of the contestants that were left humiliated upon their appearances on the show, or did she laugh into the camera at them? Did anyone create a hashtag with calls to be kind, even after one contestant killed herself last year? Or was that contestant's questionable audition showed again and again in full, even after she was dead? It's so hypocritical, it makes me sick. It's like you ONLY matter as a person if you're famous and then anything you did wrong gets glossed over when you die and you get elevated to angel status.

    Blaaaaaahhhhh!
     
    Asclepius and Underdunn like this.

Share This Page